Designers Share: Words for Editors
Panelists: Sibyl Perkins, Zach Hooker, and Jason Petz
Day of Meeting: November 12, 2012
Topic: The worlds of editors and designers are converging. No, this isn’t the script for a sci-fi movie trailer: three Seattle designers attended an Editors Guild meeting to talk about what makes great relationships and great work. We learned about considerations for website content, got some nuts-and-bolts how-tos for smooth workflow, heard a little about the philosophy of design, and got answers to our editor-to-designer questions.
Preamble: Reminders were given for upcoming Guild events, including the Guild happy hour on December 5 at Lottie’s Lounge in Columbia City, the next meeting on January 14 at the Good Shepherd Center in Wallingford, and the University Book Store event on January 24 (for which we need speakers).
Panelist Bios
We had three excellent panelists who presented their slants on the intersection of editing and design. Each panelist gave a short speech on the subject; after all three had spoken, the floor was opened for questions.
Sibyl Perkins is the principal and creative force behind Sibyl Design Inc., a little design studio dedicated to big design for breweries and distilleries with big goals. An avid home-brewer, Sibyl has combined two of the things she loves most: brewing beer and creating great design for clients including Diamond Knot Craft Brewing, Elliott Bay Brewing, and the Washington Beer Commission. Sibyl has also taught web design and multimedia at Henry Cogswell College, Shoreline Community College, and the School of Visual Concepts in Seattle and has served on the Web Design Advisory Board for Bellevue College. Her passion is creating beautiful, inspired design that helps businesses communicate their visions. Find her on Facebook and on LinkedIn.
Zach Hooker is a designer who has spent almost all of the 21st century focused on museum publications. He has designed books for institutions such as the Museum of Fine Arts Boston, theMuseum of Fine Arts Houston, and the Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco. Before becoming a book designer, he designed other less interesting things, picked up an unused library science degree, and had a short stint as an adjunct preschool teacher.
Jason Petz has, over the last 10 years, consulted with national and local nonprofit organizations and socially responsible businesses, developing marketing collateral to educate, raise resources, and motivate change and action. He has helped rebrand the Land Trust Alliance as well as brand the Land Trust Accreditation Commission; organized and executed a corporate culture change campaign for the YMCA of the USA; and assisted the W.K. Kellogg Foundation with technical support and communication for the School-Based Health Care initiative. Since 2007, Jason has been a volunteer with the Northwest Independent Editors Guild, designing the logos and materials for the biennial conference. A new resident of Seattle, Jason recently relocated to the Emerald City to attend the Master of Design program at University of Washington.
Sibyl's Talk
When her company first began, they primarily worked in print design. Over the years, they transitioned to web design. There are parallels between the way graphic designers approach print vs. web design and the way editors should approach print vs. web copy. Print design is linear; web design is dynamic. Web design needs to include hyperlinks and interactive content; it needs to have a lot more to do with the reader; it needs a clear, visual hierarchy; it needs to be analyzed closely for communication (are you getting the right message across?); it is more than just links on a page; its information architecture and content are structured in different ways. People don’t read online—they skim. Make sure that experience is easy for them by keeping content short and sweet. Further into the page, content can get into more detail. Use bulleted lists and highlight words within a paragraph to make it easy to get the point across. On the web, you also have to pay attention to Search Engine Optimization (SEO)—think in terms of satisfying both the human element and the machines. You have to balance the two without creating gibberish (too heavy with keywords). It’s not just keywords in content, however, it’s also the title tags, etc.—things that most people don’t read. Sibyl’s business began to focus on working with breweries and distilleries a few years ago. Specializing in a particular industry lets them get to know the particular needs of the industry. Their process when working with editors and writers:
Whole team meets with the client, including the writers. It’s important to have everyone on the same page from the get go with the client.
They go over the main points of the website, include the client’s points of differentiation from their competition.
Then the company writes up a proposal (creative brief).
Then they create a website map and determine the information hierarchy.
Then they create a content organizer, which shows the elements on the page, a brief description of the content, who is responsible for what, the page copy, the graphic design elements, and comments. They save this to Google Drive so there are no versioning issues and everyone is always looking at the most recent version of the document.
They do most of their web development in WordPress, which is a platform that is also accessible for editors.
Design and content development goes on simultaneously.
The last part of the process is the approval chain. Then they just make sure to figure out (and help the client understand) where the original scope ends and the maintenance period begins.
Sibyl passed out a sample content organizer and startup package for the audience to view.
Zach's Talk
Zach has worked as a designer for museum publications for a number of years and is an advocate for good editorial practices.
Book design itself is a niche field. Museum publications is even smaller.
For his projects, typesetting is actually done by the editors.
Zach is interested in creating strong teams—designers working with editors along with the client. Over the last several years, he has noticed that his job has been getting harder because clients understand the design process less and less. Editors can help with that. (Please take this as it is: a cry for help!)
Here’s an example situation. At one point, Zach was working for a very traditional museum doing a very traditional catalogue, so he took a traditional design stance and got very into the (traditional) typeface. The client loved it except for one thing—she had a problem with the old-style type figures, and could not accept that that was the way the typeface should be. In addition, the client had no interest in being educated on the subject. The person who broke the design standoff was actually the project’s editor, who convinced the client that Zach was right by saying basically the same things he had already said— but it was said as the editor, not as the designer. The distinction was that the client had worked with editors before; she knew and respected them. The client had not worked with designers before, so she did not know how they work. Designers and editors can help one another in this aspect.
Designers care about successful communication. 5% of what they do is choose colors and make things pretty. The remaining 95% is about getting content into the viewers’ brains as effectively as possible. It’s not a matter of “taste” as much as people think.
For instance, another client did not understand the purpose of sans-serif fonts as opposed to serif fonts and also did not want to hear the explanation. The problem was that the client had no experience working with designers—or, more likely, had one or two negative experiences. The client assumed the designer was an adversary in the project.
With a client like the ones above, it helps to have a meeting with the editor present. Helps the client to see the editor interacting professionally with the designer—it convinces the client that they all have the project’s best interests at heart. The editor doesn’t have to do anything special—just sit there and be an editor. In other words, be someone the client is familiar with. Whenever the opportunity arises, editors can help by validating a designer’s expertise—and designers can do the same for editors in return.
The first thing the editor can do is to get involved early in the design conversations. In any project, the more eyes there are, the better—and editors are good at catching problems. Also, the earlier editors are involved, the more likely they are to help make design decisions.
If an editor is going to be working with designers, it helps to have a basic understanding of design. A shared vocabulary underscores that designers and editors have the same goal. A good book for editors to read is The Elements of Typographic Style.
On working with designers: DO give feedback. It’s tough for designers in a way because everyone will have an opinion of their work, but editors are the best kind of design consumers. Editors have informed opinions that are valuable.
When giving feedback, know that designers never do anything without a reason—even the smallest details. Assume nothing there is arbitrary. (Book design is about designing a system, setting rules. The book then becomes an expression of the underlying system. Designers have a well-articulated rationale to everything they’ve chosen, but they may not have articulated that to everyone.)
DO ask designers, “Why did you do this?” The designer may reply with a convincing rationale, or else the designer may rethink the rationale, decide it is not convincing, and make changes.
DO take a moment to introduce yourself. Have a conversation with any new designer you’re working with. Set a baseline of mutual respect now so that when the project takes a left turn (as it will), you can still work well with one another.
Designers like editors as a group.
Also, keep clients looped in on the discussion so that you’re presenting a unified front. It’s not that the client is necessarily the adversary. Nor is it that you need to agree on everything. Just show that you and the designer talk with, like, and respect one another. Set a good tone from the outset. Just remember: for every client who thinks design is frivolous and trendy, there’s another who thinks that editors are humorless, bitter scolds (*laughter*). So we can help one another out!
Jason's Talk
Jason worked with marketing firms in Pennsylvania and Oregon. Many see these kinds of firms as advertising and PR output machines—but it’s all about the process. Understanding the in-depth process will help you, as an editor, know where you fit in so that you can get better work with them. Typical process: Every project gets a team. The Project Manager is the coordinator of the team. The Strategic or Creative Director is the boss of the team who reviews and approves work. The Implementation Team consists of the writers, editors, and designers. The first stage is the Project Brief. The Implementation Team is not involved in this step. The Project Manager works with the client, sets the expectations and tone of the project. They do market research to figure out what needs to be communicated and how. The second stage is synthesis. That’s where they bring everyone else in, take the things they’ve learned from the client in the Project Brief, and start.
They do the first draft of the copy, then send it on up the chain for review. It will go back and forth at least three times before it’s approved.
Then the copy is given to the editor, who takes copy that was written by four or five people and tries to make it sound like one person.
The copy can take anywhere from three to four days to one month to complete.
The third stage is production. This is where the designers come in, and pretty much at this stage it is just in the hands of the designer and the editor. The process is streamlined. Designers take the copy and put it into design templates, then send back to the editor for final proof.
Then comes the printing stage. Sometimes the editor will look at the printing proof. (But note: when marking up the printer’s proof, use sticky notes! Don’t write on it.)The role of the editor. The second stage is where the editor can suggest the most edits. Speak now—the opportunities get slimmer later on! The is the phase where the most decisions get made: the tone of the copy; the intended audience reading level; many others. Also at this stage: be vocal about getting all background material (client information included) available to date. Also ask for a style guide—it may not be immediately supplied, but there is often one available. When sending edits back, they will be reviewed by three to four people. Style edits should include rationale, including any background information. Use comments. During the third phase, double-check everything! If there is a mistake that makes it to print, the firm has to pay for the reprint, and the blame falls on the designer. All help is appreciated! You can still make copyedits at this point, but give the designer all rationale. All this point all edits should be on paper—not in Word or other electronic version.
Editors should also be encouraged to look for design edits at this stage. Double-check header style, page numbers, etc. If you notice something, bring it up. Remember advice from Zach— designers usually have a reason for everything!—but mistakes can be made.
Again, on the printer’s proof, mark it up using post-it notes ONLY! The designer will translate these marks into changes the printer will understand.
In general, the editor should set clear expectations up front. Use a worksheet to ask the obvious questions and get all of your answers. Make sure that there is no wasted time and that the work is done as well as possible in the given timeline. Know that timelines are very tight in marketing firms. At the same time, be up front about how long it will take. Don’t always bend over backwards in terms of timing—you’ll get the reputation of doing things fast (which is not always to your advantage). Pick your battles. There is a lot of ownership in projects, and with that come politics and strong opinions. (And don’t even bring up Oxford commas or double spaces after periods!) Always remember the poor graphic designer, who will have to defend your decisions for you to the rest of the team! Also, keep records of everything. Even go so far as to download copies of Google Docs after you touch them. Don’t cringe at the lingo, just go with it. It’s all about communication!
Q&A
Q for Sibyl: When working with technologically challenged clients, do you have a cheat sheet?
A: There are so many things to learn that we don’t have a cheat sheet. Usually, we spend more time going over things with the client. Some trust us automatically and just put the project in our hands. Some think they know their stuff—and some actually do, and some don’t. We do end up holding hands a lot.
Q for Sibyl: You work with many clients who are in the same business (breweries). How is that seen? Aren’t they competitors?
A: Most of them don’t think of one another as competitors; they’re open to working together. They see themselves as the Davids against the Goliaths of Miller, Budweiser, etc. It’s a plus for them to work with designers who are well versed in the processes of their field. We know what their pain points are. Pain points? The things that are a struggle for them, that aren’t working or are giving them grief.
Q for Zach: You mentioned editors who typeset text. What software do they use?
A: This arose because the firm I used to do most of my work through has its designers do the conceptual work. We used InDesign for just about everything, then use an FTP site to pass files around. Most of them didn’t use InCopy.
Q: Are there any other books recommended for editors to read about design?
A: Try Stop Stealing Sheep and Find Out How Type Works or The Non-Designer's Design Book.
Q for Zach: When you’re designing museum books, do you read the entire book?
A: I would love to say yes, but actually I don’t. The people (sometimes the only people) who read the entire book are the writers, editors, and a few scholars. To design for a novel, you have to read it. But my touchstone for design is not the text, it’s the art. I’ll read a few pages before starting the design, but that’s not as important as the art.
Advice from an audience member: I’m a book designer as well as an editor and would like to add a few things. First, as a book designer, I package information and organize the information architecture. Sometimes, there are too many words—so it’s good to have a designer on board early to help figure out how to organize the information. Another thing is that half of what editors do is notice consistency and inconsistency. So do designers. It comes down to anal details. As a designer, it’s nice to work with an editor on the style guide. Also, many editors and authors want to submit word text in a certain way. Worry about which items should be boldfaced or in italics more than choices on the margins or fonts.
Q for Jason: Do you ever get involved in the editing?
A: Every once in a while I would go back to the editor with something I catch before I bring it to the rest of the design team, but I don’t do editing if I can help it. When designers try to do the editing there is the risk of mistakes. I will go back to the editors for help if there are too many words in the copy.
Q: How do you handle last-minute edits?
Sibyl: For one, never do annual reports! There are always last-minute edits.
Jason: Actually, I like last-minute edits! There’s nothing worse than when a client catches a mistake.
Q for Sibyl: Do businesses need to adopt a separate style guide for web, or should the house style be used for both web and print?
A: Most of my clients are small- to medium-sized businesses, so they don’t have the budget to have separate style guides for web only.
Q for Sibyl: Does an editor need to know HTML to edit websites?
A: Not necessarily, but it doesn’t hurt. It’s better to have an understanding of search engines, anchor tags, and title tags. More websites are being built in content management systems that are friendly to editors. 17% of sites were built in Wordpress alone last year.
Q for Zach: You outlined a utopian love fest between editors and designers. There are times when not everyone is up to that job.
A: That’s true. Some people are just bad at their jobs, and it’s best to avoid them as much as possible. Editors and designers work in different realms—sometimes things happen because we’re not speaking the same language. We’re alike more than we’re different.
Q for Jason: In the current market, how often do you see a lack of budget or time for editing?
A: Not to get too cynical, but it’s the same as with design right now. Why pay for experts when you can get some amateur to do it for less? Things just fluctuate. Who does the editing when there is no editorial budget? The designer does. But the minute a mistake happens, the editors come back in the door.
Sibyl: We’re always looking for new arguments to bring in an editor, although it’s not always easy.
Q: Working independently for clients, I’ve hung back from interacting with designers because that would add to the project budget [for my role]. Can you give some perspective on added value?
Sibyl: Some of them do okay with their own design, but some of them just think they can do it on their own. Answer from the audience: If you set your role as editor as more of a project manager, then you can sell the big picture. Also sell that having the editor work with the designer directly can save money in the long run by saving the project manager’s time. Jason: There is value, too, in mentioning what can go wrong. Also sell the success stories. Argue for your process and explain what you can do.
Meeting organizer: Adel Brown, board member
Notetaker: Amanda Vail
Location: Hugo House